Well...we may have a problem.
Jan. 20th, 2004 @ 09:41 am
Seems there is now an issue about our journal site being detrimental to our possible careers in the art field.
It’s been suggested, that we’re all going to be considered a bunch of whiners and any art director who sees our name is going to put us on a blacklist, if not merely an unconscious blacklist.
This has been said either followed by or preceded by the words “This isn’t a threat but...”
Though I don’t see how it can be seen as anything but a threat by anyone, perhaps save the self deluded person who said it. It’s a hush warning...plain and simple...you may be able to convince yourselves your motives for saying what we all already knew were pure...but you know better.
I find myself now wishing instead of a productive journal where people could discuss things troubling them within the art communities on the net, that I had instead made a huge site dedicated to mudslinging and hate targeted directly at Epilogue. I have the web skills, and it’s not difficult to make such a thing untraceable to me in any way, thus salvaging my possible career as an artist, while in the same stroke, beginning a bright new career as a net terrorist.
Of course, this is a fleeting and snarly wish that comes only when first being confronted with something of this nature. I’m not a spiteful person, nor vindictive in nature, so this is not a route I will ever be pursuing. However, it really distresses me that where most of us have tried to be productive here, we’ve had much unwarranted spite coming our way.
It is not going to stop, that spite, and they are not going to bother to see what we are about before they start spewing it. Now that it’s been made publicly an issue what “Art directors” might think, I have to worry what efforts will be made by these spiteful types to see that the link just happens to be found by the right people, with the right preamble to paint it as poorly as possible. With that in mind, I have to be concerned with some of the less careful members who post here...I certainly don’t want to be the one costing you a job...it sort of defeats the purpose of having a place to help people, when membership to it alone is harmful.
So here are your choices...I’m going to let the existing members decide. Please don’t post anything lengthy and hateful, I just want to know your opinions on how to proceed.
Do we make this journal friends only and membership screened? So that we can catch those cagey “Epi-Spies” and Art Directors before they see the evils we do? We can also make the friends list invisible I believe, so it wouldn’t create a list of who was involved...and even if it did, it’s not like they could see what you are saying.
Do we close up shop. Go back to bitching to our cats and randomly freaking out on some inappropriate board as flame fodder?
Let me know what you think.
|Date:||January 20th, 2004 03:10 pm (UTC)|| |
Or simply encourage people who want to speak plainly to use a "cover", if they are worried?
I think there is really little chance that things said here, on this site, will cost someone a career. I have run into this warning myself (and a warning I think it was in that case) on a professional forum where Epilogue and it's possible shortcomings were being discussed. And the warning was valid for that forum.
But I think it's highly unlikely that any Art Director worth worrying about is going to waste their valuable time tracking down this site to see who might be a member of a radical underground movement. They've got better things to do. (Bad mouthing epi on a pro forum is a slightly different case, the ADs do visit there regularly, and could potentially get the wrong idea)
And a busy AD certainly isn't going to waste their time trying to figure out who the person behind the cover name really is.
As far as a blacklist goes, I doubt it would accomplish much. To the contrary, I would suspect that any person trying to send a blacklist of EpilogueRant friends and members would be met with a touch of suspicion themselves. Granted I'm not an AD, but it's the sort of petty vindictive behavior that would make me reconsider working with someone, if I were the one it was sent to.
So my suggestion is to speak calmly and professionally if a member wants to use a known name, or to use a cover if they want to be free to speak their mind.
Personally, I think either practice would be fairly safe.
Working on making this (or another site if the name becomes counter-productive) an alternative to Epilogue (an alternate site where artists may go to share work, get advice, and other positive aspects) might help to improve the image of the place as well. If it becomes something more than just a forum to complain about epilogue, then it would take away a lot of the ammunition from the site's opponents.
|Date:||January 20th, 2004 03:32 pm (UTC)|| |
“But I think it's highly unlikely that any Art Director worth worrying about is going to waste their valuable time tracking down this site to see who might be a member of a radical underground movement.”
This is honestly how I felt about it as well, however, whereas I don’t mind risking myself, I don’t know how I would feel to find out the improbable happened(or had a lil help happening) and someone was injured by it.
“Working on making this (or another site if the name becomes counter-productive) an alternative to Epilogue (an alternate site where artists may go to share work, get advice, and other positive aspects) might help to improve the image of the place as well. If it becomes something more than just a forum to complain about epilogue, then it would take away a lot of the ammunition from the site's opponents.”
This has been our intent all along. It even says as much on the info page. Yesterday, a girl posted a concern about deviant art...In that respect, we are sort of working as the customer service site to these places that don’t have or refuse to get one set up.
Truly, I think things may have moved past epilogue(everyone had already said all that they needed to say on the subject, and it had extensive debate) and on to more productive things non-epilogue related...if we had been allowed to do so.
|Date:||January 20th, 2004 03:59 pm (UTC)|| |
Quote- "This has been our intent all along. It even says as much on the info page."
Yes, I know.
That's why I brought it up, to sort of highlight it.
I do think this place could become a good thing, if it's allowed to.
|Date:||January 20th, 2004 04:13 pm (UTC)|| |
LOL. Your lil dwarf guy is cracking me up. He looks so annoyed.
And yeah, I know, I hope people can just lay off a lil. I think to be honest, I'm just getting really tired of chanting the mantra "we come in peace".
|Date:||January 20th, 2004 04:19 pm (UTC)|| |
"LOL. Your lil dwarf guy is cracking me up. He looks so annoyed."
Yeah, and people better watch out cause he's got a gun!
Why the heck would a person's whole art career be ruined just because they felt unfairly treated at a single online gallery? That seems like a bit of a stretch....
|Date:||January 20th, 2004 05:02 pm (UTC)|| |
Evie - Suggestion
"I have the web skills, and it's not difficult to make such a thing"
Why not use your web skills, instead, to create a website like Epilogue where all the "rejected" artists can come display their work without having to bother with acceptance/rejection? You could make the environment one like you wish Epilogue were or that you want Epilogue to be. Then you would be in charge and in control of all facets of the site.
You could call it "Antilogue"!:)
|Date:||January 20th, 2004 06:03 pm (UTC)|| |
Re: Evie - Suggestion
You wasted your time writing this, and mine reading it. If you've nothing useful to say, please don't.
|Date:||January 21st, 2004 03:55 pm (UTC)|| |
Re: Evie - Suggestion
lilhole, I was actually being completely earnest and sincere when I wrote my suggestion. "Antilogue" was a joke (or is humor not allowed in the serious crusade against Epilogue?:)). I'm sorry you took it the wrong way. If you wish others to take your suggestions, then you should be less hostile to those offering suggestions.
The truth is, when all is said and done - Epilogue is not your website and you will never have a say in how it is run. I was simply suggesting that, because you would like to see an art website run differently, maybe you could create your own. You said yourself that you have the skills. An art website run the way you wish Epilogue was run. How is that useless suggestion?
If it's useless because it would be silly to suggest that you invest lots of time and money into such a site, then you should really think about your argument in the first place as that's exactly what Chad did. He's the only one who has a right to say how his site is run. If he wanted to reject all art with the color blue in it (or that had any nudity, or that he simply didn't like), that would be his right. Because he attempts to have a fair system and a standard of quality, he is condemned, which is silly because, again, it's his site and he's letting artists display their art for free.
That's all I have to say. Good luck with whatever it is you actually hope to accomplish. :)
P.S. Yes, MP, Elfwood is more the kind of site everyone here seems to want and it's a wonderful site. It's what inspired me to start drawing and I've had a gallery there for a long time. I love it! Incidentally, I also have a (albeit much, much smaller) Epilogue gallery. ;)
|Date:||January 21st, 2004 11:39 pm (UTC)|| |
Re: Evie - Suggestion
The reason your comment was dismissed was because 1. I was asking the MEMBERS of this group what THEY wanted to do about staying open or closeing and 2. Posting as an anony as you did, wording your post the way you did, made it clear on your bias viewpoint. I quote:
"Because he attempts to have a fair system and a standard of quality, he is condemned, which is silly because, again, it's his site and he's letting artists display their art for free. "
This is why I said you wasted your time. You are just one of the many who spoke and judged and offered an opinion without taking the time to find out what you were talking about. No one is condemning Chad.
And just to make something clear...Making a website, and making an automated gallery site are two different animals. A "Die epilogue die!" site, would take about two days of work and be very easy to do...because I know HTML. I spent a LOT of time learning it...I do not, however, in any way consider myself a programer. I wouldn't know where to begin to set up a system that can do that. On the other hand, I have been working with a group of people who DO, and an automated gallery site IS on their to-do list...very far down on it, but it IS there.
Re: Evie - Suggestion
I thought that was Elfwood....
|Date:||January 20th, 2004 07:54 pm (UTC)|| |
Actually, it was me who said that some complaints might have a detrimental effect on people's careers--but I was not referring to complaints made in a forum organized specifically FOR complaints. I was referring to people bringing up complaints in a completely irrelevant forum (RPG.net), which is frequented by a lot of art directors.
My point was that an art director, seeing someone complaining about their work not being approved, might think "Hm...this guy is really upset about being rejected from some website. What's he going to do when I send his work back for revision? Is he going to argue? Is he going to malign me in public? Not worth the risk." This is actually very true, and worth considering before you complain about rejections from anyone--especially publishers. You never know who's reading. (Once, I made a joke about having been rejected by White Wolf...and their AD attached my joke to his e-mail where he DIDN'T reject me. Fortunately, he took it very well, but not everyone does.) It isn't a threat to point that out--it's just something that's worth thinking about. When you post complaints in a polite and constructive manner, as some members of this community do, I shouldn't think you'd have anything to worry about.
I don't see a problem with people bringing up generalized complaints here, however, or even specific ones. This isn't a professional forum, after all, and even a few of us from Epilogue are reading it to get suggestions. (Just a small note on that front: the removal of art that bends Epilogue policies, and any other administrative changes, may be slow for the next little while. The admins are working on launching a couple of major new features, which are eating up most of their time.)
|Date:||January 20th, 2004 08:01 pm (UTC)|| |
Wait--never mind. It looks like you were referring to Jon H's comments on this journal, not mine on RPG.net.
How would you guys feel if I talked to Chad about setting up an official, Epilogue-endorsed "Epilogue Suggestions" LJ? You'd be able to voice complaints about our site without being considered rude or out of line, since you would be doing so at our request. Also, we'd be able to prevent people from coming in and shouting at you for "daring" to pick holes in our service.
If you hate that idea, that's fine. Just throwing it out there.
Actually, I think that would be perfect to shut both camps up, provided it didn't turn into a flame war. It really is a brilliant idea.
|Date:||January 20th, 2004 10:26 pm (UTC)|| |
Socar, I can't speak for everyone of course, but personally I think that would be a huge step in the right direction.
The biggest issue people seem to have is not being able to be heard without the discussion going down in flames. If a way could be found to fix that, I think you'd have half the battle won right from the start.
|Date:||January 21st, 2004 03:11 am (UTC)|| |
"...setting up an official, Epilogue-endorsed "Epilogue Suggestions" LJ?"
Perhaps 'epiloguerant' isn't even a bad name for such a 'suggestions' LJ? I think it's a fine idea, but are we talking about an Epilogue-endorsed LJ that will accept the rants as well as the objective feedback? That can be hard for official Epi parties to handle...
|Date:||January 21st, 2004 03:16 am (UTC)|| |
Chad and I are discussing either a forum or an LJ where people could voice grievances (with or without actual suggestions), as long as no personal attacks or slams on people's art are involved. You would have a good chance of a response from an editor or Epilogue staff-member, either explaining our position, asking for further clarification/your suggestions, or addressing your concern directly (such as in the case of works you feel were unjustly rejected). This is still in the discussion stage.
The forum/LJ would be moderated, and posts directly flaming an individual artist or editor would be removed in the interests of keeping it civil, but you'd be free to voice any concerns you may have, and Epilogue members would be asked to keep any opposing viewpoints civil and non-dismissive as well. (That is, accusations of "sour grapes" with no constructive content would be removed along with flames.)
|Date:||January 21st, 2004 03:19 am (UTC)|| |
Just to add a small coda--we would definitely want to call it "Epilogue Suggestions" or something similar, without reference to ranting, in hopes of keeping it level-headed and professional. While ranting would be OK, actual suggestions would be even better.
|Date:||January 21st, 2004 03:45 am (UTC)|| |
I don’t know if you would be interested Socar, but I could very easily set you(any anyone else you might recommend) up as a moderator here. I personally, didn’t intend to restrict people’s speech, and planned to handle mud-slinging with calm discussion and reprimand. However, if “the honor system” isn’t enough to provide everyone with comfort, I suppose a little more moderation wouldn’t be a bad thing.
If it is an issue(and provided I have your personal assurances that such control won’t be abused and used to silence people's concerns, without first honestly addressing them)...I’d even be willing to completely turn THIS forum over to you, and leave entirely. I’m fairly positive it’s just a matter of a few simple clicks to change who the official admin here is.
I noted your Coda right before I posted this, and just wanted to add that the name “epiloguerant” was chosen because its suffix had been used quite positively in the past. My only experience with a site with “rant” at the end, was Elfwoodrant, and I don’t know that anyone has ever considered for a moment that it may have been chosen for a negative agenda. I think it’s really all in the way you present it.
|Date:||January 21st, 2004 03:50 am (UTC)|| |
I'd have to discuss that with Chad, but I think the general feeling at the moment is that it would be best to start afresh, and without the word "rant". I really appreciate the offer, though--it's definitely encouraging that the people who started this community in the first place are on the same page about what the purpose of such a community should be.
Yeah, I understand what you mean. If a person pitches a big nasty fit and rants and raves, they probably have that 'artistic temperament'. I know you weren't referring to people voicing reasonable concerns about oversights and/or inconsistency. And as far as WhiteWolf is concerned, I have seen some of the most godawful art in those books. They could only benefit from people like you.
I Vote that we stay open
Well I always love it when a plan comes together and we are all playing nice on the play ground.
I believe it would be a mistake to shut this forum down. Sure we had a rocky start at first due to miscommunication but...Look at us now. Most folks coming here are taking the time to read our words and understanding. We are making sense and helping those who are listening and they are acknowledging that we have helped.
Epilogue making a LJ forum for complaints is an excellent ideal and a major step in the right direction toward progress. Their Staff constantly showing up and reading our posts shows they are interested in what we say and as long as we do as we said in our goals, give constructive and helpful comments I don't see where there would be any reason for Epilogue or any other forum's AD's to black list any member of this group. At least not legally as long as the comments are ligitimate, justifiable and not meant as an act of malicious prosecution.
Besides is black list really such a bad thing? Think about it from this viewpoint...just look how many people have become famous these days for being Blacklisted or doing something the general public frowns on? Speaking strictly for myself, I don't care if anyone finds out who I really am or not for I will continue to speak out my opinions and stand up for worthy causes I believe in despite threats, black lists and censorship. But that is just the kind of person I am and I am not looking for employment with any art company.
But seriously if anyone does have a fear of reprisal, I agree they can use Anonymous posting or an assumed name as Calcamp suggested. I too doubt the AD's of any company would have the desire to go on search and destory missions for anyone speaking out on a non-professional LJ forum. But to be honest I have known a few Supervisors in my old work place who would put an asistant to the task if there was enough incentive to do so to better their own position in the company.
Well you asked for my opinion on this and so I gave it. Sorry if it upset anyone but it is my opinion and does not reflect the opinions of any other members of this Forum.
I'm happy this site is here. I think it's a little unliky that ADs will be sniffing around here, but i guess it could happen. I don't plan on saying anything out of line or off the wall myself, but those who are prone to such behavior could choose to post anonymously or under different LJs not connected to their art careers if they think there's cause for concern.
Hell, you could just stick a warning on the front of this board that says "this is a public board and you never know who's reading, so if you don't want something associated with your good name, say it under another", or some such language, and call it good. While making it moderated or friends only might help protect people, it would also probably keep them from joining. It would certainly prevent them from being able to post anonymously. I think so long as people get a friendly reminder that their public actions may have consequences, it's up to them whether they want to ruin their reputation or not. We're all big kids here, right?
I like the idea of Epilogue starting a suggestion board themselves, but i don't think this should be it. This is a board for posting rants and grievances about various art galleries on the internet, and that's a valuable service that would be lost if this were Epi-only. And Socar's right - having "rant" attached to the end would give the wrong impression for what they are trying to achieve. It'd be very awesome for people to have a place to post that won't start a flamewar like it would in the other forum areas on Epi, and would also be regularly viewed by the staff of Epilogue. I'm a little concerned about the idea of moderating it, because i think a lot of the problems people have with Epilogue are trust issues. A lot of folks seem to have this weird belief in conspiracy at the worst and snobbery at the best. Moderation would help keep the flamage down, but so far the approach used here seems to be doing the same.
Of course, i guess if it gets on people's nerves, they can always come here to complain!