Why all the hate towards Epilogue?
Jan. 18th, 2004 @ 01:52 am
|Date:||January 19th, 2004 07:32 pm (UTC)|| |
Y'know what boggles my mind about this?
Why is it always assumed to be a hate fest when somone has an issue with Epilogue?
Every time this comes up, people who I know are(or thought so at least)reasonable level headed people seem to turn into touchy, defensive neurotics at the very thought that someone might have a problem with Epilogue.
Hell, not even a problem... unresolved issues...things they'd like to help improve... anything that suggests Epilogue could be better than it is.
And anyone trying to honestly help get people to see one anothers' points, just gets swept up in all the bullshit.
I want you folks to know, I tried to help.
Epilogue's shortcomings came up on a forum I frequent, and I tried to make people there see that there are some valid issues to be discussed.
But it's a professional forum and, being a professional, I can only go so far before I start hurting myself in the industry.
Unfortunately I can't afford that at this stage.
So, I tried and failed.
But I wanted you folks to know I gave it a shot. I'm sorry I couldn't do more.
Best of luck.
|Date:||January 20th, 2004 05:00 am (UTC)|| |
Re: unregistered madelf
I know exactly what you mean and I don't blame you for being careful. I'm not using my real name either(though anyone who really wants to know me can probably figure out who I am). In a career where your product's value is subjective, word of mouth and gossip CAN be the end of you. A lot of professionals work at Epilogue, and some of these other forums out there, and if their members get a negative opinion of you and think of you as a trouble maker, they could let that slip to someone who could/would have offered you a job otherwise. I don’t blame you one bit and I thank you for doing what you have.
|Date:||January 20th, 2004 09:32 am (UTC)|| |
Re: unregistered madelf
I want to let you know that I saw - and appreciated - your attempts in the other forum. I understand your frustration, because I watched people scan right over what you -said- and start moaning about what they -thought- you were saying. I'm sorry for that. Truly. I think there are a lot of people who've convinced themselves that everyone who says anything other than 'Epilogue is awesome
' is just a bitter whiner who got rejected, but it's a terrible shame. It means they won't even listen to the people who actually love Epilogue and what they're trying to do, but just want to see it improve.
Thank you for trying. Maybe, someday when people have opened up their minds again, people like us will be able to accomplish something when we try...
PS: I would have liked to back you up back there in RPG.net. I'm sorry that I wasn't online often enough to catch any of the flames that came your way.
|Date:||January 20th, 2004 11:44 am (UTC)|| |
Anonynous Jon H
You know, I dont think that's necessarily true Calvin.
I'm going to be uncharacteristacallt honest here: You do have a style of debating which involves you repeating the same point over and over...witness the layout thread on RPGnet, or the debate we had about armour on Epilogue, or other threads I've seen get heated in Tangency. You do seem to believe that you are not listened to, when in fact you are the one who isn't changing your arguement to reflect whats being presented to you. That's not meant to be a terrible insult - its just the way you go about things, apparently. Its also a quality that will get you a long way in your illustration career, given the right direction. Dogged determination is necessary.
BUT: just because people dont end up agreeing with you doens't mean they haven't digested, or listend to, your point. It may just be that they see things you dont, or that you are simply wrong from the outset.
To examine my own stand point - I do view the new admissions every day. I dont think quality has dropped. I do see some choices I personally would query, but that's all - I dont get bothered by them.
I do hear sour grapes being chewed here and in other places. Now, I could be wrong in that...and I'm interested in discussing it. I do however have concerns that the other side of the debate is less open to examine its own motives. To some people out there there is a terrible problem at Epi, full stop, end of story, and everyone else just isnt able to see it.
Heavens, that must be a frustrating position to be in, and I really sympathise. But there is a chance that you are actually wrong in your assessment, and thats why people get fed up of hearing the same thing over and over, and why you get the same response over and over.
I think that frustration in itself is a cause of a lot of sour grapes and bitterness.
I'm sorry, because I know that upsets you to hear that, but if i dont express my opinion because it upsets you, then I am being emotionally blackmailed into silence. One of the reasons I finally posted to the other forum.
Sure, I hear where you guys are coming from. And I disagree. I also dont beleive you were flamed at the pother site in the slightest, I think you were pulle dup sharply on a few very pertinent points. And if your admissions of those were not genuine, then you have seriosuly dropped in my estimation.
Now, a problem that I see could well develop is that anyone disagreeeing with the policies of Epilogue gets shouted down over there, and anyone standing up for Epilogue gets shouted down over here. Anger breeds anger - this site started off very angrily, and people are still coming here and digesting that early stuff, and are likely to respond in kind for some time to come.
I would urge everyone here to be aware that since this LJ has been linked to previously, it's very easy to find. Also, people are lurking here reading this stuff. You can't stop that, so I would be aware that there are repercussions to what you say, given that you dont know who is reading. That's not some threat - I cant do anything to anyone, and nor would I if i could - hey I'm a nice guy who just happens to disagree with you about some site on the web! I think diversity of opinion, if expressed in a mature manner is great for any community!
Just dont paint yourselves into a corner, I guess, is my point. Dont let the anger and resentment diminish your case, if you truly believe in it.
|Date:||January 20th, 2004 03:49 pm (UTC)|| |
I'm glad to hear that someone was listening. Whether they agree or not, that has to be their choice, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
It just got frustrating that everytime I posted trying to convince people that there were two sides to the issue, up popped another "sour grapes" post. Or one still addressing only the individual rejection issue, when I was trying to establish that the most commnly brought up issue I've been hearing isn't about individual rejections.
And yes, I know I can be very stubborn. It's something I have to watch for constantly. But that has never prevented me from listening to other people's input, and I have many times changed my mind based on information that someone has given me.
I have to take some exception to your examples in my own defense.
In the armor discussion, I stated very frankly that (although I was maintaining my opinion for the time being) I might be mistaken in my data, and intended to do more research before continuing the argument. Notice that I didn't continue my argument?
On the layout argument, there never was one. Not in the "I think you're wrong" sense. I advised a person who wanted to do a PDF hobby publication that a wordprocessing program would very likly be adequate for their needs. Others insisted that Quark or Indesign was required to produce anything that wasn't pure crap. My only stance was that, yes if you want top quality professional results then use top quality professional programs, but that they aren't neccesarily required in every instance, and may be overkill for some applications. Although I agreed with many of his points, even then and do so more now, I did some limited head butting with GMS (who I later offered both a private and public apology and we seem to be on good terms now) and dropped out of the discussion when it became heated. I would hope you're not mistaking DGBG's continued animosity as being in any way connected to my own opinions, as that thread got much farther out of hand after I left it.
All I have ever asked is that people give me the same consideration. You don't have to change your mind, just allow me to have a conflicting opinion, and listen to what it actually is before you decide whether I'm an idiot. Often they do. But on that particular thread, I honestly believe that most of those posting weren't paying attention to what I was saying, or were misunderstanding it. I posted repeatedly to try to clarify my point. But everytime, the next post would address everything but the point I was trying to make.
The most frustrating part about that whole thing was that I was just trying to be the diplomat, not the crusader. The only point I was trying to make is that the people who are complaining have the right to do so, and what would it hurt to hear what they actually have to say.
Maybe it did some good, but it didn't seem like it.
I'm probably just not diplomatic enough that I should be putting myself into these situations. Maybe that's something I should try and remember the next time the urge hits me.
|Date:||January 20th, 2004 03:54 pm (UTC)|| |
Re: unregistered madelf
Oh, almost forgot..
Out of pure curiosity, which heated threads on Tangency?
I usually stay out of the worst of those (as most of the subjects there don't interest me enough to get worked up over) & I really don't recall any nasty ones that I had a large part in.