Why all the hate towards Epilogue?
Jan. 18th, 2004 @ 01:52 am
I stumbled into this live journal from one of the forums i frequent and was very dismayed to see quite a deal of trash talk about Epilogue and some of it's more prolific members. I too am a member of Epilogue and very proud of that fact. I am also a very active member of the community there, and spend most of my time in the WIP forum trying to offer critique and advice to other artists.
I've read several comments here about awesome works being rejected while poorer ones get in, and i just have to say, i don't see that happen very often. Certainly not as often as it seems to be suggested here. Most of the rejected works i see come through the WIP forum really do need more work. It is quite rare that a piece gets posted there where i can't see or at the very least have a rough idea of what the editor saw that warranted a rejection. And many times, despite all the efforts of the other people who give critiques, the things that need the most work, are often never changed or not changed enough to correct the problems. Sometimes people change everything BUT the area that needs work and then wonder why they get a completely different rejection reason. They get angry and they get frustrated and it's all because they won't listen to the help that people are giving them. This makes it equally frustrating for those of us trying to help.
No one at Epilogue does anything because they have to. Not the editors, and not the community. We offer our critiques and advice out of a true desire to see artists improve. And then to come to a place like this and see people call us elitist snobs? Well, that just hurts.
|Date:||January 18th, 2004 07:31 am (UTC)|| |
There are problems with Epilogue. In abundance. It is very possible you haven’t noticed it, and for that you are counted as lucky. If you read some of the non “trash talking” posts here, you’d see exactly what the issues are.
If you focus on the few threads here that are just being hateful, then of course you are going to see us as unreasonable.
I think it has already been established, that there is no hate felt towards epilogue from the majority of the members here(including staff). Many of us do however; suffer severe frustration from a lack of being able to voice our grievances, without having a dog pile of EPI supporters tell us to “quit whining”.
This is not the place for an Epilogue Pride parade. This is not the place to come tell people their grievances aren’t valid. This is not a place to try to hand us a serving of guilt because “no one at Epilogue HAS to do anything” so we should be grateful. THAT place would be http://www.epilogue.net/cgi/common_room/ultimatebb.cgi
I’d also like to point out that though the name of the LJ forum is epilogue rant, it has from it’s inception, been about ALL net galleries and organizations. This is not a hate group, and those who have tried to make it so have kindly been asked to stop...as a result, many have started up REAL hate groups.
|Date:||January 18th, 2004 08:10 am (UTC)|| |
"though the name of the LJ forum is epilogue rant, it has from it’s inception, been about ALL net galleries and organizations. This is not a hate group, and those who have tried to make it so have kindly been asked to stop...as a result, many have started up REAL hate groups."
Then maybe it's time to change the name. Having a place called "Epilogue rant" does give a rather distinct impression to the uninformed that the general attitude here towards Epilogue is a negative one. Why is it any wonder that real hate groups have formed as a result? Discontent allowed to fester without resolution breeds hate. Getting together and complaining to like minded individuals is all well and good. But if all that is done is complaining, and no positive action for improvement is taken, then there is nothing left to come from it besides hatred. If Epilogue is so poorly done and has so many problems, then why doesn't someone make a better art site instead of just griping about it?
"This is not the place for an Epilogue Pride parade. This is not the place to come tell people their grievances aren’t valid"
So only people who dislike Epilogue or have something negative to say about Epilogue are allowed to post here? Hardly seems fair. Rather one sided if you ask me. I should think an intelligent discussion on any topic should welcome an opposing view.
"Many of us...suffer severe frustration from a lack of being able to voice our grievances"
And how does complaining here resolve the problem? Why not voice your grievence to the people who can actually DO something about it? I'm not saying these complaints aren't valid. I personally feel the same way but in the opposite direction. I am far more horrified by the idea that i will have inferior work accepted into my gallery than i am by any rejection. I am trying very hard to go pro with my art and i NEED a reliable benchmark to track the quality of my work. So far Epilogue is the best i have been able to find. Is it perfect? No. But at least there are other artists there who can tell me when i've fallen short of professional quality.
The vast majority of works i have seen on the WIP forum that get rejected really do need more work. I will hold to that with utter conviction. But even the editors make mistakes. And when they do, they are always very quick to try and correct them. I noticed Socar herself came here and resolved an issue that should have been taken up with Epilogue in the first place and wasn't. Had that been done, no one would have had to get nasty about it over here. So what, i ask is the point of this place if not to breed hatred (however inadvertantly that may be)?
|Date:||January 18th, 2004 08:26 am (UTC)|| |
“Then maybe it's time to change the name. Having a place called "Epilogue rant" does give a rather distinct impression to the uninformed that the general attitude here towards Epilogue is a negative one.”
It is the job of the uninformed to become informed. If you read the community rules(which takes just a minute) you would know exactly what we are about. Do you think Elfwood Rant is negative as well?
“But if all that is done is complaining, and no positive action for improvement is taken, then there is nothing left to come from it besides hatred.”
Did you...READ any of the threads? Or just the titles?
“So only people who dislike Epilogue or have something negative to say about Epilogue are allowed to post here? Hardly seems fair”
Again, takes one minute to read the rules and this is answered.
“And how does complaining here resolve the problem? Why not voice your grievence to the people who can actually DO something about it?”
They close the thread only after many many other people jump down the complainer's throat for not being content with their lot. You can’t post a grievance on the Epilogue boards and get anything positive out of it, it turns into a rant against whiners.
“I noticed Socar herself came here and resolved an issue that should have been taken up with Epilogue in the first place and wasn't.”
It WAS taken up with epilogue and the artist was insulted and shuffled to the side. It WAS corrected after being voiced here...Hmmm sounds productive to me? And I don’t recall anyone getting nasty about it over here.
Read the community rules, and then read the threads, before you complain. Everyone “complaining” here has a good working knowledge of how epilogue works, show us the same courtesy.
We know they are doing it for free but the whims of one person can often be very idiosyncratic, especially when it comes to something like 'epilogue quality' or 'anatomy'. You could find something wrong with just about anyone's work. No matter how small it happens to be, you could use it to say, "Hey, I am not fond of this person's style so I am going to use this anatomy disqualification. They really do paint ugly faces and I think one eyebrow is higher than the other." Think that has never happened?
|Date:||January 18th, 2004 08:23 am (UTC)|| |
"you could use it to say, "Hey, I am not fond of this person's style so I am going to use this anatomy disqualification. They really do paint ugly faces and I think one eyebrow is higher than the other." Think that has never happened?"
My question is...do YOU really think it HAS? I personally wouldn't believe it. Not without proof. I'm there. I see the rejections posted in WIP. I can see for myself what needs work on them. No, i don't think an editor has ever used a rejection to deny a work based on personal taste. I think some editors are more lenient than others and some have a much better eye than others. That's just part of being human.
First off, not every single rejected piece shows up in the WIP. I personally know of a brilliant piece by one of the members of the EpiRant community that was rejected and for the life of me, I cannot understand why. Want proof? Here: http://www.deviantart.com/view/3834875/
Maybe some of the editors do have a more discerning eye than others or it could be that some of them have an idea in their heads of what something or someone should look like in a painting and if it doesn't match their ideal(say if a person in a painting really does have a face that is unusually round or eyes that are too close together as some unfortunate humans do!), then they might come to the conclusion, maybe even unconsciously, that something just isn't right about this picture and reject it. If you have never recieved a rejection from an editor saying something like "We no longer accept pin-up" or "This piece doesn't have enough of a background" when it clearly does, then consider yourself lucky. Yes, I am grateful to Socar for helping me out and I don't come here because I have a hatred of Epilogue. I am here because I really feel that some really talented artists are treated unfairly by an editor or in the WIP forums and are brutally hacked to bits when they don't deserve it. I agree with you that most of the stuff in WIP really does need corrections but I can point out some things that are nothing more than style issues as well.
EEEEEEKKKKKK!!! PLEEEAASEEEE don't use my work as an example!!! Nononononono....Going to go crawl under a rock now.
But it's lovely! Better than much of the stuff that got into my epi gallery.
Aww well thank you. It has it's good points, but even I can find faults with it ... and it's my baby.
I tend to hide from being singled out. I fully expect to be torn to shreds when I am...and I'm usually not disappointed.
Out of a bit of curiosity, I checked your galleries...and it's just not true. Your work rocks. It's a completely different style than mine, but it's awesome.
|Date:||January 18th, 2004 04:53 pm (UTC)|| |
That definitely is a fantastic piece but over and over and over again my eye is drawn to a flaw; that hand in the front. The line of the knuckle ridge is blurry when, being the closest area to the viewer, should be sharp. It's very distracting and prevents me from really enjoying the rest of this otherwise magnificent piece. When i am able to move beyond that, though, another small (but noticable) oversite is the rim light on her from the moon. It should really extend all the way along that graceful lock of hair in order to be consistent with the rest of the image.
That's 2 rejection reasons to chose from. The drop down menu the editors have only allows for one. When more than one reason applies, the only choice the editors really have is "Not Epilogue Quality" or "Needs minor touch ups". Although an "unrefined/lack of detail" might be a better way to derscribe the oversights in this image. Depending on the editor and what was most obvious to them, this piece could have been rejected for any of the following:
not epilogue quality
needs minor touch ups
If i were to take a guess i'd say it was either inconsistent lighting or unrefined. Out of curiosity, what was the rejection reason given for this?
"I am here because I really feel that some really talented artists are treated unfairly by an editor or in the WIP forums and are brutally hacked to bits when they don't deserve it."
I am sorry, but in the 10 months i have been at Epilogue, i have NEVER seen anyone be purposefully brutal to someone in WIP. I have seen people throw fits about being critiqued, and i have seen some painfully honest advice given, but i've never seen anyone be outright hateful when giving a critique.
Hun, I'm not being mean, but this image is NOT posted in the EPI works in progress section and I am NOT looking for a critique. I've already said I see flaws in it, I intend to fix the flaws "I" see when I am ready.
I probably could show you work that shouldn't have been rejected but was, perhaps not in my own work, but I do know a few others.
This piece WAS accepted at Epilogue...It was accepted, then the site fell, and THEN it got rejected.
My gripe has never been that I can't get my work in epilogue...It's with the inconsistency with which our submitted works are judged.
Allow me to disagree emphatically and stop myself from spitting out a comment directed at you that has something to do with bovines and waste products.
I think the whole picture is meant to be etherial and soft in lines. If her hand were as hard as you suggest, I think it would clash with the overall feel of the picture. And yes, the moonlight should extend along the rest of the hair but that is so minor! I mean nitpicky minor. It did not detract from the picture at all for me and I feel it was unfairly rejected. Honey, I can find plenty of things in your work that are just as flawed but I still think they are good enough to make the cut and they did. So here we have a problem of inconsistency with judging which pictures are worthy and which are not.
You are precisely the kind of person at Epi who causes hard feelings with your 'Stop whining, you buncha sore losers' attitude.
|Date:||January 18th, 2004 05:17 pm (UTC)|| |
I just stumbled across this site last night, following the same link you did, no doubt. I don't know if I'll bother registering here or not so I'll just be anonymous, but identified, for now. I'm sure you'll recognise the username in the subject.
Now you more-or-less know me. Not on a personal level of course, but you've read my posts at RPGnet, and possibly at Epilogue. We've even spoken by PM in the past. I trust that you realize I'm a pretty reasonable person.
With that said, yes. I've seen some pretty nasty comments here, and some direct attacks which I think anyone will agree is rude.
But I read through this entire site since I got here, and the overall tone is pretty civil. To my eye, this site is more of a support group than a hate fest. And it is very true that much of the animosity here is stirred up by Epilogue fans coming in with the distinct intention to raise a stink.
It is also true that these people have a grievance. It's not so much that things rejected and found in the WIP forum couldn't use more work, or improvement. From what I know of you, I think you'd be one of the first to agree that anyone's work always has room for improvement, regardless of experience.
The point these people are trying to make is that the rejection level isn't consistant. It's not about crying that their work should have been approved because it's perfect. It's about work that is many times worse than some things struggling in the WIP forum, being routinely approved. The trend is readily visible in the daily list of new art. The inconsistancy of the work accepted has been getting progressively worse over the couple of years I've been an Epilogue member, and it wasn't what I'd call great when I got there.
Certainly this is an opinion, but it is the opinion of many, and they are entitled to it. Bringing this issue up with the powers-that-be at Epilogue does not work. I've tried myself. Any questioning of the system, or suggestions for improving the quality of the review process are met with dismissal at best. My own courteous (and single) inquiry met with more than a little hostility.
The situation didn't bother me a great deal, so I just stopped hanging around as much. I figured, it's their site, they can ruin it if they want to. Other people are more concerned and dismayed. They wanted a place where they could discuss such issues without censorship (which they cannot do at Epilogue). So they created this place.
Like any fledgling enterprise, it's getting off to a rocky start. But the tone is improving. You can see it in the progression of the threads, if you care to. This site is maturing, and as it does, it may have the potential to be a very good thing. From what I've read, that's what they have in mind. We'll just have to wait and see. But in the meantime, please try not to judge these folks too harshly, or to judge all of them for the rudeness of a very few.
|Date:||January 18th, 2004 09:50 pm (UTC)|| |
Re: unregistered madelf
Very well said, Madelf, very well said indeed.
After the initial "RAH RAH RAH I HATE EPILOGUE" type stuff, things here have settled out into a very reasonable discussion area. I'm not really taking part but I'm pleased to see the issues being raised here are getting talked about.
Personally, every time I've used Epi's "report this picture" link, I've been totally ignored. True, I've only done it twice but both times were with blatant photo manips of copyrighted material and both are still up to this day. I don't know why they say "report things" when nothing seems to happen if you do.
|Date:||January 19th, 2004 05:32 pm (UTC)|| |
Re: unregistered madelf
I'm just curious how often this happens - the report of an image being ignored that is. I've heard people mention that in previous threads here. Are images that violate copyright conciously being left up? Or are they simply under-staffed and just missing some of the reports?
|Date:||January 20th, 2004 03:35 am (UTC)|| |
Re: unregistered madelf
I'm betting that removing images that don't fit falls pretty low on the priority queue as far as work for the mods go. Which would you rather do, peruse new art or go through old stuff that *might* be a copyright infringement? Since every reported image isn't automatically wrong, I bet the mods have to actually go hunting for the source material to back their decisions up when they remove something. That's a lot more work than just accepting/rejecting shit. Note, I'm not a mod, I don't know the actual process to which they must adhere when they try to get rid of an accepted piece, I'm just guessing.
One of the things I reported was a photo from a lunar landing...astronauts stepping down from the lander, that sort of thing. I looked and looked and I just couldn't find even additions to it. It was just one of NASA's pictures. Granted, those things might be public domain by now, I don't know but they didn't change anything. It wasn't painted freehand, I hunted out the original on NASA's web site and as far as I could tell, all they did was resize it. So I reported it. I went back about once a week for two months and it was still there. Still is for all I know. The other was a "fairy wings to magazine ad" thing.
|Date:||January 19th, 2004 03:43 pm (UTC)|| |
You know what, you are right. Every single one of you is absolutely right. I don't know what i was thinking whan i posted here and i am very sorry i stepped into your circle.
My sincerest apologies.
*carefully holds the door so it doesn't hit her on the way out and keeps on walking*
|Date:||January 19th, 2004 07:32 pm (UTC)|| |
Y'know what boggles my mind about this?
Why is it always assumed to be a hate fest when somone has an issue with Epilogue?
Every time this comes up, people who I know are(or thought so at least)reasonable level headed people seem to turn into touchy, defensive neurotics at the very thought that someone might have a problem with Epilogue.
Hell, not even a problem... unresolved issues...things they'd like to help improve... anything that suggests Epilogue could be better than it is.
And anyone trying to honestly help get people to see one anothers' points, just gets swept up in all the bullshit.
I want you folks to know, I tried to help.
Epilogue's shortcomings came up on a forum I frequent, and I tried to make people there see that there are some valid issues to be discussed.
But it's a professional forum and, being a professional, I can only go so far before I start hurting myself in the industry.
Unfortunately I can't afford that at this stage.
So, I tried and failed.
But I wanted you folks to know I gave it a shot. I'm sorry I couldn't do more.
Best of luck.
|Date:||January 20th, 2004 05:00 am (UTC)|| |
Re: unregistered madelf
I know exactly what you mean and I don't blame you for being careful. I'm not using my real name either(though anyone who really wants to know me can probably figure out who I am). In a career where your product's value is subjective, word of mouth and gossip CAN be the end of you. A lot of professionals work at Epilogue, and some of these other forums out there, and if their members get a negative opinion of you and think of you as a trouble maker, they could let that slip to someone who could/would have offered you a job otherwise. I don’t blame you one bit and I thank you for doing what you have.
|Date:||January 20th, 2004 09:32 am (UTC)|| |
Re: unregistered madelf
I want to let you know that I saw - and appreciated - your attempts in the other forum. I understand your frustration, because I watched people scan right over what you -said- and start moaning about what they -thought- you were saying. I'm sorry for that. Truly. I think there are a lot of people who've convinced themselves that everyone who says anything other than 'Epilogue is awesome
' is just a bitter whiner who got rejected, but it's a terrible shame. It means they won't even listen to the people who actually love Epilogue and what they're trying to do, but just want to see it improve.
Thank you for trying. Maybe, someday when people have opened up their minds again, people like us will be able to accomplish something when we try...
PS: I would have liked to back you up back there in RPG.net. I'm sorry that I wasn't online often enough to catch any of the flames that came your way.
|Date:||January 20th, 2004 11:44 am (UTC)|| |
Anonynous Jon H
You know, I dont think that's necessarily true Calvin.
I'm going to be uncharacteristacallt honest here: You do have a style of debating which involves you repeating the same point over and over...witness the layout thread on RPGnet, or the debate we had about armour on Epilogue, or other threads I've seen get heated in Tangency. You do seem to believe that you are not listened to, when in fact you are the one who isn't changing your arguement to reflect whats being presented to you. That's not meant to be a terrible insult - its just the way you go about things, apparently. Its also a quality that will get you a long way in your illustration career, given the right direction. Dogged determination is necessary.
BUT: just because people dont end up agreeing with you doens't mean they haven't digested, or listend to, your point. It may just be that they see things you dont, or that you are simply wrong from the outset.
To examine my own stand point - I do view the new admissions every day. I dont think quality has dropped. I do see some choices I personally would query, but that's all - I dont get bothered by them.
I do hear sour grapes being chewed here and in other places. Now, I could be wrong in that...and I'm interested in discussing it. I do however have concerns that the other side of the debate is less open to examine its own motives. To some people out there there is a terrible problem at Epi, full stop, end of story, and everyone else just isnt able to see it.
Heavens, that must be a frustrating position to be in, and I really sympathise. But there is a chance that you are actually wrong in your assessment, and thats why people get fed up of hearing the same thing over and over, and why you get the same response over and over.
I think that frustration in itself is a cause of a lot of sour grapes and bitterness.
I'm sorry, because I know that upsets you to hear that, but if i dont express my opinion because it upsets you, then I am being emotionally blackmailed into silence. One of the reasons I finally posted to the other forum.
Sure, I hear where you guys are coming from. And I disagree. I also dont beleive you were flamed at the pother site in the slightest, I think you were pulle dup sharply on a few very pertinent points. And if your admissions of those were not genuine, then you have seriosuly dropped in my estimation.
Now, a problem that I see could well develop is that anyone disagreeeing with the policies of Epilogue gets shouted down over there, and anyone standing up for Epilogue gets shouted down over here. Anger breeds anger - this site started off very angrily, and people are still coming here and digesting that early stuff, and are likely to respond in kind for some time to come.
I would urge everyone here to be aware that since this LJ has been linked to previously, it's very easy to find. Also, people are lurking here reading this stuff. You can't stop that, so I would be aware that there are repercussions to what you say, given that you dont know who is reading. That's not some threat - I cant do anything to anyone, and nor would I if i could - hey I'm a nice guy who just happens to disagree with you about some site on the web! I think diversity of opinion, if expressed in a mature manner is great for any community!
Just dont paint yourselves into a corner, I guess, is my point. Dont let the anger and resentment diminish your case, if you truly believe in it.
|Date:||January 20th, 2004 03:49 pm (UTC)|| |
I'm glad to hear that someone was listening. Whether they agree or not, that has to be their choice, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
It just got frustrating that everytime I posted trying to convince people that there were two sides to the issue, up popped another "sour grapes" post. Or one still addressing only the individual rejection issue, when I was trying to establish that the most commnly brought up issue I've been hearing isn't about individual rejections.
And yes, I know I can be very stubborn. It's something I have to watch for constantly. But that has never prevented me from listening to other people's input, and I have many times changed my mind based on information that someone has given me.
I have to take some exception to your examples in my own defense.
In the armor discussion, I stated very frankly that (although I was maintaining my opinion for the time being) I might be mistaken in my data, and intended to do more research before continuing the argument. Notice that I didn't continue my argument?
On the layout argument, there never was one. Not in the "I think you're wrong" sense. I advised a person who wanted to do a PDF hobby publication that a wordprocessing program would very likly be adequate for their needs. Others insisted that Quark or Indesign was required to produce anything that wasn't pure crap. My only stance was that, yes if you want top quality professional results then use top quality professional programs, but that they aren't neccesarily required in every instance, and may be overkill for some applications. Although I agreed with many of his points, even then and do so more now, I did some limited head butting with GMS (who I later offered both a private and public apology and we seem to be on good terms now) and dropped out of the discussion when it became heated. I would hope you're not mistaking DGBG's continued animosity as being in any way connected to my own opinions, as that thread got much farther out of hand after I left it.
All I have ever asked is that people give me the same consideration. You don't have to change your mind, just allow me to have a conflicting opinion, and listen to what it actually is before you decide whether I'm an idiot. Often they do. But on that particular thread, I honestly believe that most of those posting weren't paying attention to what I was saying, or were misunderstanding it. I posted repeatedly to try to clarify my point. But everytime, the next post would address everything but the point I was trying to make.
The most frustrating part about that whole thing was that I was just trying to be the diplomat, not the crusader. The only point I was trying to make is that the people who are complaining have the right to do so, and what would it hurt to hear what they actually have to say.
Maybe it did some good, but it didn't seem like it.
I'm probably just not diplomatic enough that I should be putting myself into these situations. Maybe that's something I should try and remember the next time the urge hits me.
|Date:||January 20th, 2004 03:54 pm (UTC)|| |
Re: unregistered madelf
Oh, almost forgot..
Out of pure curiosity, which heated threads on Tangency?
I usually stay out of the worst of those (as most of the subjects there don't interest me enough to get worked up over) & I really don't recall any nasty ones that I had a large part in.
|Date:||January 20th, 2004 10:34 pm (UTC)|| |
Not to beat this to death, but another thing occured to me about the way my post may have been taken & I wanted to clarify.
I hope that I didn't give the impression that I was flamed at RPGnet for defending EpilogueRant.
That wasn't the case.
I don't think I made a great deal of headway at RPGnet, but the touchy, defensive, neurotic comment came out of a much broader basis than what happened over there. It was influenced by the cumulative effect of all the general reactions I've run into, not any specific cases.
|Date:||February 12th, 2004 07:58 pm (UTC)|| |
I think there are some interesting points here. Yeah, sure there are probably some overly zealous pro-Epi's and some overly spiteful anti-Epi's I imagine (I haven't read every post yet), but I think many folks are trying to be even handed and reasonable.
It seems to me that Epilogue uses a judge system in order to control content quality. Due to volume and volunteer free time, since it is run by volunteers, there is more than one judge.
I guess the question I am leading to, is that the number one problem I hear (at least in this thread), is that Epi judging is inconsistent, but since every judge will undoubtedly have their own taste, and some will be tougher critics than others, what suggestions do you have for Epilogue to fix the problem of inconsistent judging?
|Date:||February 12th, 2006 02:26 am (UTC)|| |
I just learned about this place... I found it kinda randomly and I'm not really planning on joining, but I don't have a problem with it either.
I've had some stuff rejected by epilogue, infact, I've never had anything accepted. I'm trying to just take it on the chin and see where I can improve and think of the whole thing as a learning experience.
But I do have to say that I agree with the inconsistancies. In fact, a few people I've talked to on epilogue (mostly people who've I've met elsewhere, and found out they have a gallery there) said they see it too. Ofcourse I won't name names because that's terribly rude and its not that artists fault.
But I think the solution shouldn't be that hard. The problem is that the mods are inconsistant... so they should have 3 mods vote on every piece submitted. That way, if 2 out of 3 think its good/bad/needs work.. then maybe things would be more consistant. One person might not have a good eye, but 3 people combined probably will. I know it's a lot of work, and they'd need more editors, but I think it would be worth getting more volunteers for.
Anyway, I don't know where the suggestion box is at epilogue, but maybe you guys could get the idea to someone important.